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- 27/01/2008 at 10:11 pm #6554
The curent concensus of opinion would point to the Wood as being the most stable version so can anyone convince me that the Mark 2 is as stable?
Those sailing in races may get more experience of capsizing than those cruising, as they will have safety boats and be gybing and spinnakering in conditions where prudent cruisers will be reefed and tacking around.
I formerly raced a Mark 2, and I righted it from fully inverted a couple of times, once in the sea in a F5-6 at the Nationals off Christchurch. One crew stood on the inverted gunwhale, leaning out from there, pulling the righting line. The initial movement was so slow that little seemed to be happening, but eventually the boat came onto its side.
I now race a woody which has reached a 45 deg mast down angle a few times, but appears to have righted from there with less difficulty. The Mark 2 has polystyrene blocks under the side decks and a low down front tank, which may make it more difficult to right from inversion than the woody. The GRP +S has a similar buoyancy tank layout as the woody.
I have fitted righting lines, and have a kicker which, when released after a capsize, has enough travel to allow the boom to ‘lift’, both of which may help to spill wind from the sails to facilitate righting the boat.
Dave818101/02/2008 at 10:48 pm #6588matoiMember
Surely the idea of long enough “righting lines” would be the same as the centreboard hole concept?
Hi Dave! Hi all!
Following Dave’s suggestion I’ve discussed the idea with an architect – obviously a better authority for discussing statics and forces than myself being a film editor. He confirmed that pushing the sailor’s body weight away from the boat with the help of a line should be considerably advantageous for righting compared to just holding onto the centreboard with hands. But he also explained that since the sailor’s body moves together with the boat during righting (at least in the initial phase), it is irrelevant where on the boat is the righting line attached to – only the position of sailor’s centre of mass is important. Therefore it can be concluded that my previous suggestion about hanging yourself onto the centreboard tip via a length of a line is stupid as it only brings the risk of braking the centreboard. It is much better to use long righting lines – like Dave suggested in his post.
Perhaps this was all obvious to everyone involved here, but I felt obliged to correct myself and perhaps motivate anyone involved in cruising without righting lines prepared, to think about it again.
Best regards to all,
Mato02/02/2008 at 8:48 am #6590AnonymousInactive
When you see it in graphical form it makes perfect sense – if only Brancaster Harbour were a little deeper (I would still have a mast)!02/02/2008 at 9:54 am #6591Colin ParkstoneParticipant
May I make a couple of points for you all to think about,
Firstly, to me the idea of putting ballast into the boat to steady it is OK! but do remember that to counter this the strain on the rig becomes greater and the mast on the Wayfarer is not one of the stiffest ones on the market.
Second, maybe the righting lines could be of a strop type rather than just a single line that has a tendency too let you swing on the end of it.It is hard to stay on the under side of the gunwale at the best of times!
CP02/02/2008 at 9:01 pm #6595
Great drawings, they show this perfectly.
The two righting lines can be made of 8mm rope, which is thick enough to grip without putting knots in it, which might jam and prevent it from being pulled out when needed. One end is tied to the base of the shrouds at deck level. The other end then trails into the bottom of the boat, until it is needed and pulled out from the shroud end.
Dave818103/02/2008 at 12:52 pm #6598AnonymousInactive
If the righting lines are webbing they can be folded and lightly taped to the shrouds which makes them very easy to locate when the boat is inverted.03/02/2008 at 8:38 pm #6604
I tried webbing righting lines, to save weight. It worked however I changed back to rope as I found that the lightweight, flat webbing could move about in the wind.08/05/2008 at 11:59 pm #6905AnonymousInactive
Surely the idea of long enough “righting lines” would be the same as the centreboard hole concept?
The “hole in the centreboard” idea wasn’t that bad! It set me thinking, as follows:
If you did have a rope fastened to the tip of the centreboard you would be able to lean considerably further outboard, compared to hanging onto a rope anchored lower down (eg a righting line). Thus you can get your centre of gravity further away from the boat and exert a greater righting moment.
drilling holes in centreboards v. bad idea!
But I do like the idea of having a righting line about your person, rather than having to fish about under a turtled boat for it. So how about a compromise, consisting of a 3 foot length of 6mm line which you can easily keep in your bouyancy aid. One end has a small bowline tied in it, which you can use as a handle, the other end a slightly larger one, big enough to simply hook over the tip of the centreboard, but not so big it slides too far down.
So now you can stand on the inverted gunwhale and lean right outboard, with one arm outrstretched behind you and the other hanging onto your rope strop fastened to the tip of the centreboard.09/05/2008 at 8:00 am #6906Dave BarkerKeymaster
The beauty of Simon M.’s webbing solution is that there is no flapping in the wind (prior to use at least, because they are folded neatly away) and minimal “fishing around” (because you always know exactly where to find them – taped to the base of each shroud. Just run your hand along under the gunwhale to feel for the shroud and so the strap).
Each one is long enough to throw right across the upturned boat to your colleague. (Without knowing their exact length I’m not sure of the situation for single-handers.)
Another reason for viewing this system positively is that it has been shown to work, and may likely have already saved lives
I can’t help thinking that it might prove tricky to loop one end of a rope over the centreboard, and that if successful, the loop would tend to slip off, but there’s no harm in trying it.
I’m going to be using a 3-stage approach:-
1 – Stay upright
2 – Use masthead buoyancy to avoid inversion
3 – Webbing, flaked neatly and taped to the shrouds09/05/2008 at 9:01 am #6908AnonymousInactive
I’m a bit confused here. Why don’t people want to use the jibsheets? to my mind they are the perfect ‘righting line’.
If the boat inverts, a crew member should be put on the gunwhale using the jib sheet brought forward of the centreboard to apply some oomph. Another member of the crew should sit on the rear quarter on the same side. This helps break the suction between the hull and water that prevents the boat righting. Any other crew members can go to the bow to keep the boat head to wind. Once the boat comes back to on its side, all the crew except the one now applying weight on the centreboard should go to the bow. Now as the boat comes upright it will be head to wind and the jib/genoa will be backed. This should help prevent momentum causing the boat to continue over and will also put it in hove to.
Surely using any righting line that is connected to the shroud will cause force to be applied in a way that the shroud and its supporting area was not intended for.
Hope I’ve fuelled the debate some more.
Martyn09/05/2008 at 9:39 am #6909Dave BarkerKeymaster
I agree that in ideal circumstances (if that’s the right way to describe an inverted Wayfarer!) the jib sheets could be the answer.
Sometimes this isn’t possible though. For example, if sailing with continuous sheets, and particularly if also using a partly or fully reefed genoa, there won’t (I imagine) be enough slack sheet to reach far enough over the hull to be much use.
The sheets are also less accessible than a purpose-made line, assuming inboard positioning of the leads, which seems to be fairly standard now.
In view of the loads that the shrouds are subject to at other times I don’t personally feel anxious about connecting righting lines there, but it would be interesting to hear other opinions on this.09/05/2008 at 10:26 am #6910AnonymousInactive
I must admit that I’m moving further and further away from the idea of using the jib sheets as righting lines.
Firstly, as mentioned above, if using a continuous sheet it won’t reach to start with, and also agree about the awkwardness of getting to them when the fairleads are on the side benches.
As to the idea of righting the boat hove to with the genoa backed, this seems like a bad idea as half the time it’s a backed genoa that had you over in the first place!
I’d rather the boat came up beam on to the wind with both sails flapping, then there’s no chance of it “tacking on top of you” as you try and climb in.
Funnily enough, the last time I capsized was in a GP14 last September, which was due to the crew losing his footing during a roll tack and ending up falling on the leeward side of the boat with the genoa backed. I was able to spring over the side deck as it went over and straight onto the centreboard. I reached in and grabbed the weather jib sheet to use as a righting line but even at full stretch I couldn’t pull it upright due to the wind on the backed sail. In the end the crew chucked the leeward jib sheet over and using that it popped straight up.
I wouldn’t worry about overstressing the shrouds. I did a safety boat training course last year and one of the things we did was how to right a sailing dinghy. The practice boat was a Wayfarer which we turtled and then righted by tying a warp around the leeward shroud and chucking it over the hull forward of the centreboard. Then re-approach the boat from dead upwind, grab the end of the rope and reverse upwind under full power until the boat fully rights. Now that dinghy was subjected to this about 8 times on the day we were there, so if you multiply that by the number of courses they do in a season the fact that it remained undamaged says it all, especially as it was a rather ratty and uncared for MK1 GRP.
Bit like mine… 🙄
Anyone any suggestions on the correct length for a Wayfarer righting line?09/05/2008 at 4:21 pm #6911AnonymousInactive
Hadn’t thought about the continuous jibsheet issue or the rescue boat thoughts.
Personally I still think a boat coming up hove to is safer and will be more stable as you climb aboard. However this is why I love the forums as they give a great chance to discuss ideas and see things from others point of view.
Martyn11/05/2008 at 9:40 am #6913Jim.ByersMember
I had a capsize in a Mk.1a.and it inverted straight away,quite big waves.
It would only lie along the waves and some four or five attemps it always came right over and inverted again so I think all wayfarers in wavey conditions will invert.
I now have a Mk.2.S.D.fitted with drain tubes.Only inversion I have tried was in flat water and it sailed dry in about 100 Yds.I spoke to Secumar and they said the 20L.bag was ample for a wayfarer. I pop riveted two “P”
brackets at the top of the mast and fit it before raising the mast,if it goes off I would head for land to re-arm it which I would anyway after a capsize
Spare capsule in watertight container.I do not think their is suction in an inverted boat as the centre board slot would have to be sealed before this could hapen.I have righting lines tied to the twhart and led outside the shroud with a loop to use as a step back into the boat,to be tested at Ullswater.
P/S.I have hatch covers to screw into the drain tubes for sleeping.13/05/2008 at 4:30 am #6935AnonymousInactive
If you have furling or reefing on the foresail then when you get the boat to capsize from inversion I thing it is a good idea to roll the sail away so that when the boat is righted into wind 1. It has a much larger No Go Zone (Less likely to recapsize)2. Foresail sheets are much shorter( no flappy sheets to trip or bruise crew). Once all is tidy, crew can bail and helm can sail.
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