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- 16/01/2008 at 8:45 pm #3650AnonymousInactive
I was brought up sailing W334 (Mark1 wood) in late 1960’s and early 70’s. I later (about 2002) bought W8005, a Mark2 GRP and more recently, for past 2 years have been sailing a World 10233. This query concerns inversion. I do not remember ever inverting the Mark 1 wood or the Mark 2 but the World has inverted (albeit on a mooring!) and my brother has inverted his World whilst sailing too. I do not go out to capsize but do like cruising the coast and want the reassurance that if I were to capsize, the boat would not invert at the drop of a hat. Righting a turtled boat in any sea is not easy but from a 90 degree capsize it is not too problematical. Has anyone else had a similar experience. Is it to do with the underfloor buoyancy in the World in lieu of the floorboard arrangement in the earlier versions? I do not want to sail with a balloon on the top of the mast; I would rather sail a more seaworthy (suitable for coastal passages) version of a Wayfarer. What should I do – is the Plus S/Mark 2 the answer or is it back to the Wood? Sorry if this all old hat and been discussed to death before!
Nick Chavasse16/01/2008 at 8:54 pm #6474AnonymousInactive
Have you thought about a Secumar Anti-inversion device, quite small (When deflated) 25 or40 Lts of bouyancy when inflated, I think the best way is to have it on a halyard with a block at the top of the mast, then you have mast head bouyancy even when reefed.17/01/2008 at 9:57 am #6479W10143Member
I seem to remember when the world first arrived on the scene an article in Wayfarer News on capsize tests intimated – that the tendency to invert was not present!
The fact of the matter with experience is that the World will invert and quickly once past the point of no return (although this may come later because of its better ability to shed water), and yes I do believe it’s due to the underfloor buoyancy.
Therefore I really believe that the only ‘safe’ way to cruise a World is with some kind of buoyancy which is always at the head of the mast, even when reefed.
I must say I haven’t had an obvious problem with the Echomax inflatable at the masthead (other than being slower than anybody else!):oops: , but following Simon’s observations regarding Radar visibility, I may now change to a 40L Secumar device (so I can keep up with Matt :twisted:).
David17/01/2008 at 10:18 am #6481
Could you please remind us all what Simon’s observations were regarding radar visibility?17/01/2008 at 2:06 pm #6482W10143Member
Simon suggested to me that Miss Quinn was visible to the gas tanker at 5 miles without her mast.
David17/01/2008 at 3:23 pm #6484
Although it’s not easy to capsize, I found my World to go from capsize to full inversion very quickly! My uneducated guess is that buoyancy in the sides contributes to this much more than buoyancy in the floor. Another thing from my small experience (1 involuntary inversion + 1 done on purpose for practice): if you go for a dive (for example to get the centerboard down/up, or to check the sheet cleats) don’t expect to be able to catch a breath under the inverted World.
On my second inversion event (it was performed by Ralph Roberts and me = 2 x cca 75kg), we had a *very* difficult time getting the boat upright again. We didn’t understand why was it so. Next time i do this, I plan to attempt furling the foresail underwater before starting to spend energy on righting. If it’s possible, I think it might make righting much easier, and reduce chances of another capsize when rig comes out of the water and gets hit by a gust.
As I had the transom flaps permanently closed, once the boat righted from inversion, it felt very unstable with all that water running across the floor from side to side. Of course, just like The Book says, once it gets sailing again, the bailers drain the cockpit relatively quickly (it can never be too quickly!). So in order to improve cockpit draining time, I intend to modify my transom flaps so that they can be brought back into function by simply releasing a shock-cord line from in front of the storage box.
Just like you, I would like to add myself to the group of citizens that doesn’t want to believe in flying balloons on top of the mast in heavy air, nor rely on mechanisms which can’t be checked or tested (maybe Simon or Dave M. could deny this – I haven’t owned a Secumar myself). We need some more testing to see if there is a reliable and easy procedure for righting the World without these aids.
Also, I would like to add that in-spite of this issue, I wouldn’t change to another type of boat except maybe to a woody for it’s classic appeal. In my humble opinion, it is a sad thing and a step back for aspiring dinghy cruisers that the World version with it’s beautiful curved lines and it’s intelligent features was killed by the new license owner/designer.
W1043517/01/2008 at 8:19 pm #6485AnonymousInactive
Has anyone with a World tried to right it using righting lines, rather than Jib sheets. When I right my Mk2 if I use the line attached to the base of the shroud then I am are not trying to pull a Genoa/Jib full of water aswell as the weight of the boat.17/01/2008 at 8:52 pm #6486AnonymousInactive
Just goes to prove – it’s been all downhill since the woodie.
Despite my bailing effort at the weekend I would still rather have a boat that doesn’t invert, but comes up fairly waterlogged, than a World that I couldn’t get horizontal let alone vertical.
I have some experience of other marks, having capsized my woodie, a Mk 2 and a World – hence my opinion above!
The World was very hard work to get horizontal. Had I not been fit I would have really struggled, it took crew on the upturned gunwale plus me hanging off the centreboard to break the seal of the water and get the boat coming up at all.17/01/2008 at 10:04 pm #6490howardMember
On bouyancy: I worried about this quite a lot last year, not liking any of the options; however, where I sail a full inversion could pin the mast in a sandbank. In the end I got the smaller secumar – it provides more bouyancy than most of the pre-inflated options but is fairly small & neat at the masthead. I haven’t tested it (the reload cost is around £20), I trawled the web and found a couple of cases where it had worked, a couple of cases where it fired by mistake (damp or vibration), but no complaints that it failed. Take this very small sample for what it’s worth.
On radar: I worry about this, but was hoping that someone else had the answer. I presume you’ve seen the annex to the Ouzo report (http://www.maib.gov.uk/publications/investigation_reports/2007/ouzo.cfm) on the likelihood of radar visibility, and the subsequent reflector tests (http://www.ybw.com/pbo/pdfs/radar_reflectors.pdf). These make scary reading but seem to offer little practical advice for something the size of a Wayfarer.17/01/2008 at 11:25 pm #6491
Has anyone with a World tried to right it using righting lines, rather than Jib sheets
Yes, we used righting line, not jib sheet.
Mato18/01/2008 at 10:05 am #6494
A couple of observations on this topic:-
1 – Get at least one person onto the c/board really quickly, preferably dry. The sails make the inversion slower, just as they do the recovery, so try to catch the boat halfway (I know it doesn’t always work like that). The boat will begin to right so slowly at first that you probably won’t notice any movement. Of course there may genuinely be no movement! Sometimes it seems to be a question of “breaking the seal” between boat and water surface.
2 – In my view energy is better spent dashing for the centreboard and slowing or reversing the situation than searching underwater for the furler. This is just a personal opinion, derived from sailing in cold, murky water! To avoid a re-capsize take the time to let the boat come head to wind (or nearly so) before pulling upright, and make raising the centreboard (not quite fully) and freeing sheets your instant priority once in the boat. The genoa will be useful to help you get under way, by backing it to get (and keep) the boat out of irons, which is one reason I would be reluctant to furl it. I admit that furling does significantly reduce water resistance though…
3 – A masthead float of any sort must be better (or no worse) than nothing once the boat has capsized, but I completely agree that it would be wrong to assume that you can rely on it working.18/01/2008 at 1:09 pm #6496
In my view energy is better spent dashing for the centerboard and slowing or reversing the situation than searching underwater for the furler.
I agree completely with you! I meant to suggest furling the foresail only in case you didn’t succeed in preventing the inversion. Prevention is always better than curing. And Wayfarer sailors seem to be quite good at it as I learnt that most of them haven’t inverted the boat for a very very long time.
Before I completely abandoned windsurfing, on several occasions I went for a sail in November in a cold gusty northerly wind of about 30kt. As I fell relatively often, I learnt that it is better to spend energy on good preparation for a new waterstart than to go about it in a haste, struggle and fall again.
That is why I feel that, if you are already wet, swimming to the bow and pulling on the furling line right where it exits the drum, should be less demanding than hanging on the centerboard for one minute more than necessary.
A masthead float of any sort must be better (or no worse) than nothing once the boat has capsized
I agree, but stressing on ‘once the boat has capsized’. I can’t help myself feeling that a large volume at the top of the mast could actually enforce a capsize when it wouldn’t occur without it. I know Secumar is small before it inflates. But after it is inflated and the boat righted, it becomes counterproductive at the top of the mast, and the sea state is still probably the same if not getting even worse. Also, I guess it can’t be very practical to replace in rough conditions with the boat waterlogged. You have to start sailing as quickly as possible and leave the inflated thing up…
P.S. I apologize for placing comments on this issue without significant experience behind me. But I’ve warned everyone sincerely, so all my comments can be taken with that on mind.18/01/2008 at 2:43 pm #6497
It’s good to hear from you.
Going for the furling line at the bow is a good bit of lateral thinking – I will try this myself if I capsize in water which is deep enough – at the club the lake is slightly too shallow for a true inversion. (Btw, ideally I would want to swim with a righting line in hand, to stay in touch with the boat).
I agree that extra weight and “windage” at the masthead are both undesirable, but if the device is rigged on a halyard it could at least be removed (eventually!) if this was thought to be the best course of action. It would have to be really windy…
A partially-sealed or foam-filled mast would be another possibility. But there is so little space in the upper part because of the taper, so the volume is too little.
Mato, your opinion is always of interest, because you are good at learning from your experiences and you think critically. Keep it coming!18/01/2008 at 3:52 pm #6498
Thanks for support Dave!
I will certainly post a comment when I get an oportunity for another inversion test. It’s so annoying waiting all this months for warmer weather and a way to escape from work…
If you find out something new about this, don’t forget to post as well!
Mato18/01/2008 at 8:59 pm #6503Adrian PeryMember
I had an inversion several miles offshore in a scottish sea loch a couple of years ago, the crew was light (I am less than 75kg and my crew was even less). I learnt the following points:
1. The inversion was so fast there was no time to take anything with me – so now I carry all essential life saving devices (flares/radios etc) in a waistcoat.
2. The position of the sails and boom at the time of capsize affect the recovery. Spending time in the water to sort the sails and free sheets etc will save much time and effort later. Especially if you are trying to right the boat ‘against’ the weight of the boom, which makes it much harder. This is more important than worrying about the foresail.
3. With under floor buoyancy and an aluminium mast the world is prone to inversion – therefore be prepared; secure everything properly.
4. Masthead buoyancy is essential. I immediately had in-sail buoyancy fitted. This is less intrusive and has little effect on a cruising sail, but I accept it gets less effective as you reef. However, on the plus side, it does avoid the concern about a less securely tethered inflated bag at the top of the mast after a capsize. Certainly the girlfriend is happy with the in sail bouyancy.
5. Two light people can right a world. However training in calm conditions is a very good idea and be prepared to go ‘half way’ then pause to sort out sails and sheets/halyards. Going under the boat is not a good idea in my opinion.
6. Once righted she drained very quickly – both through transom flaps and self bailers. It felt like within seconds.
7. Having understood what happened I have confidence in cruising a world, as once righted it drains very easily – no crew man is required to bail.
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