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  • #3493
    MikeHall
    Member

    I am trying to re-install the Spinnaker on my W. The fittings were removed by a previous owner, but I still have them. It would appear that there were two poles in use in some kind of ‘Fly away’ system, with the poles rigged next to the boom.

    Is the use of two poles legal in W racing or have I got to think again?

    Many thanks

    Mike Hall

    #5273
    PeterW3035
    Member

    Could you have the same situation as I had when I acquired W3035? She had two poles but it eventually dawned on me that one was a jib stick.

    Since rebuilding I’ve left the re-rigging of the spinnaker as a seperate project. Having looked at other boats the variety of methods seems a bit mind boggling.

    Does any one have any recommendations for rigging a spinnaker for cruising and occassional club racing? What do people use when it comes to Barber haulers, balls systems, pump cleats and launching poles?

    Peter
    W3035

    #5278
    Dave8181
    Member

    Two poles and fly away self-launching pole systems are legal but more usually seen on Merlin Rockets. Simple single pole system are widely used and crews are familiar with them.

    Twinning lines (barber haulers) are IMHO better than the slightly simpler reaching hooks, as they make it easier to gybe and control the spinnaker, particularly as the wind increases.

    The ‘balls’ system limits how far the guy will go out, and sets the pole on the forestay. This is useful when gybing, and means that the guy is never fully uncleated and free to run out. This helps prevent capsizes due to failure to cleat the guy, resulting in the spinnaker moving round to the side and dragging the boat over :roll:. However many boats do not use the ‘balls’ system, perhaps because it is slower to (leeward) hoist the kite, as there is not enough slack to fit the pole and pull down the twinning line, before the hoist/windward mark.

    Halyard pump systems are very difficult to make work reliably. Further recommendations for racing would be to use tapered spinnaker sheets, rig the sheets to minimise friction by having only two turning blocks (eg in the sidedeck and at the thwart), and fitting autoratchet blocks.

    Dave8181

    #5281
    MikeHall
    Member

    Dave,

    Many thanks for your reply. By the look of my poles, I will need to get a new one if I change the system. There are no fittings at the end of one pole, just a smooth hole, and a small block at the other.

    Other than the experience of various crew members, is there any advantage in using one system over the other? I am struggling to work out exactly how this system was rigged, but could imagine that it would be easier to use in practice is I got it working again.

    Many thanks

    Mike

    #5282
    MikeHall
    Member

    Pete,

    Thanks for the suggestion, but I am pretty sure that they are both spinnaker poles, there are similar fittings on the boom for each of them.

    Kind regards

    Mike

    #5285
    Dave8181
    Member

    >MikeHall wrote: is there any advantage in using one [spinnaker pole] system over the other?

    As I understand it the point of the self launching and twin pole systems is to keep the crew hiking/trapezing out longer, instead of the crew moving their weight inboard and forward by the mast. For some classes this may be important, but in many classes it won’t be faster so there is no point, just more to go wrong 😥

    I doubt it would really be easier to use, as twin pole systems generally use spinnaker chutes, have the guy/sheet already connected to the poles by additional ropes, and require twin uphauls and launching systems 😯 😯 😯 … and single self launching poles may not push the pole fully out without manual assistance. However I have seen one Wayfarer with a single self launch pole and they were happy with it.

    You may be able to fit standard ends to the spinnaker pole you have.

    Dave8181

    #5286
    MikeHall
    Member

    Dave,

    The poles are a little bent and the ends are drilled to accept the fittings, so I imagine that I would need to buy a new pole if I change to the ‘standard’ system.

    I still cannot work out exactly how the system worked, there is a block on one end of the pole ( the mast end I think, as the up/down haul loops are on the other end). This block exits sideways, and would not be suitable for a piece of cord that was fixed to the boom to attach to the spinnaker sheets. I suspect that one (very long) piece of cord attached to the spinnaker sheet, went down the pole, round the block to the blocks on the mast and then went down into the boat where it could be pulled by the helm or crew. I am not sure whether this arrangement would work properly!

    Have you seen anything similar?

    Kind regards

    Mike

    #5291
    Dave8181
    Member

    Mike,

    Can you post pictures of the pole, mast and boom fittings?
    You wrote:
    > there is a block on one end of the pole ( the mast end I think, as
    > the up/down haul loops are on the other end). This block exits sideways…
    > Have you seen anything similar?

    This sounds like the spinnaker end of the poles. With attached twin poles, the pole downhaul ropes for each pole run from the deck in front of the mast, up to the front end of the pole. The downhaul rope then enters the ‘sideways’ block (which points downwards) at the front end of the pole and exits through the end of the pole. The loose end then ties onto a ring. The guy/sheet runs though this ring, so that when the pole is in use, as the downhaul goes tight, the guy becomes automatically attached to the end of the pole.

    Loops on the other end may run along on a shockcord stretched diagonally from the pole fitting on the mast, to fittings on the back half of the boom. This would support the back end of the pole when stowed on the boom. A rope from the back of the pole, through a block fitted to the mast fitting, and down to a cleat, would launch the pole.

    The RYA Dinghy Sailing Show is a good place to check out how these type of systems work in practice … 😕 😕 😕

    Dave8181

    #5293
    MikeHall
    Member

    Dave,

    What you are saying makes a lot of sense. I will take some pictures of the poles and post them. I can’t post pictures of the boom fittings because they have all been removed, I only have the positions of the holes to go on!. There are a couple of blocks on the mast though, I will photograph them. I don’t know if it is possible to upload the pictures to the forum, but I will put them up somewhere.

    This may take me a few days, as I won’t be going to the club until the week end.

    Kind regards

    Mike

    #5294
    MikeHall
    Member

    Dave,

    What you are saying makes a lot of sense. I will take some pictures of the poles and post them. I can’t post pictures of the boom fittings because they have all been removed, I only have the positions of the holes to go on!. There are a couple of blocks on the mast though, I will photograph them. I don’t know if it is possible to upload the pictures to the forum, but I will put them up somewhere.

    This may take me a few days, as I won’t be going to the club until the week end.

    Kind regards

    Mike

    #5339
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    The standard Wayfarer pole can be a bit of a struggle to clip onto the mast for smaller/weaker crews, especially on a close reach, and twin/fly-away poles can address this problem. As you have the twin poles, I’d give them a try first.

    Ted Gadd was using a tried and tested twin pole arrangement last time I saw his boat, and was quite satisfied with it. He’d started with an all-singing, all-dancing arrangement, but ended with a simpler affair in which a single line for each pole ran from the cleat in the boat, up to the fitting on the mast, back to the inboard end of the respective pole, through the pole and out the other end where it eventually tied off on a ring through which the associated sheet was left. Thus, pulling the line both pulled the sheet onto the pole and pulled the pole onto the mast.

    Pole retrieval was by elastic. On my Fireball the following gave sufficient force without excessive load at full stretch: dead-end the elastic at the outboard end of the pole and run it though the pole to a pulley on the boom, from there run it forward to a pulley at the front of the boom then back to a further pulley on the other side of the boom for the other pole and thence, symmetrically to the other pole end.

    A chat with Ted Gadd would no doubt be very illuminating – no doubt someone in the Assn can put you in touch.

    #5340
    MikeHall
    Member

    Hello,

    Yours was a very interesting reply to my post, as I am sure that there is an E D(?) Gadd listed as a previous owner of the boat! (No 1720). I presume that they are the same person.

    The arrangement that you suggest certainly makes a lot of sense from the fittings that are on the boom, but I was worried that there would be some snagging if the line to the sheets was pulled in before the pole went out, something that seemed certain to happen.

    If anyone knows where Ted Gadd is and can put us in touch, I would be greatful.

    Kind regards

    Mike

    P.S. I will try to get the pics of the poles posted, I have been having problems with the card reader for my digital camera.

    #5341
    Fantasia
    Member

    Ted Gadd is a member at HISC and lives on Hayling Island. His current boat is W7699 and is rigged with twin poles. Have a look at the Wayfarer web page on the HISC site : http://www.hisc.co.uk/wayfarer/page1.htm you will see Teds boat with spinnaker set and leeward pole stowed on the boom and lots and lots of string. You could contact Ted through the UKWA members directory, he is very knowlegeble and approachable. Good luck.

    #5342
    MikeHall
    Member

    John,

    Many thanks for your reply, I will have a leaf through the directory!

    Kind regards

    Mike

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