Latest News: Forums Racing IMPORTANT Rule Changes

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  • #11348
    7588
    Participant

    OK, so maybe now I am being a little pedantic, I just want to be sure this rule will produce the right outcome!

    If the new rule will be “…compass heading and changes thereof…” does this not exclude any compass that stores / uses a boat’s tacking angle? [Same logic as using a compass to “…capture the Line Perpendicular…”.]

    Not only would this exclude the Tactick RaceMaster, it would also exclude the Tacktick Micro Compass.

    #11350
    Colin Parkstone
    Participant

    I think i see your point 7688, but

    Id say the rule did not mean to exclude the Micro with its bearing change, via compass bearing, or the added info from what i would say was the same thing but in another form. ie, Actual increments moved from a mean.

    If I’m correct, the Master tells you how far or how long to the line and that is to much imfo over the brain working it out for me to accept and so would ask for that not to be allowed.

    Unless your telling us that the Master needs say a gps input to get the time too, or the distance from the line.

    If thats so, then the standard Master will be the same as the Micro in a more costly box. Some how i think it does more than that but i’m starting to need a GPS as im getting a bit lost???? 😕

    #11353
    Geof
    Member

    7588 I have just re read the rule and it appears to me that it does exclude use of the ‘single number’ MODE function of a MicroCompass (Now called Raymarine MicroCompass not tacktick)
    The good news with the new rule IMO is that it does not outlaw any specific device but does restrict the way you can use it so people will not have to spend any money on new compasses even if they have a Racemaster.

    I don’t understand why sound and photographic images can be recorded or at least why they are specificaly referenced in the new rule. I assume that Photographic Image covers the use of digital cameras. What is the difference between recording a video or the boats actual track from a gps recorder? Both for later review.

    #11354
    Colin Parkstone
    Participant

    Just looking at your words 7688, you say ‘store /use the tacking angle’ Id say the Micro only reads out the changes in the Tacking angle but does not store it for a later date like the compass reads out it bearing but not stores it???

    It will tell you what the changes are from a remembered bearing when in Tactic Mode and so the amount of movement in the wind, ie you can have it set for i think 5d or 8d.

    I see that only telling you something instead of you having to do the maths in your head from an angle you wrote down before.
    As that mean angle can change anyway, we still have work to do work to come up with a new mean angle, its not done for us.

    What I dont like is a electronic thing telling you how fare to the line, what angle to sail, when to leave ect, Think that’s what we are trying to stop.
    A point worth remembering, these rules cannot have any amendments to them at the AGM, we vote on the rule.
    Do we think the new rule is better and nearer to what is meant for the class or is the old rule better??? Thats what im trying to work out. 😕

    #11355
    Davdor7038
    Member

    I think the purpose of the new rule is to prevent devices, which tell the racer how far away they are from the line and how long it will take to get there, or tells them when to tack, from being used during the actual race.

    As I understand it, the proposal wants racers to use their brain power to achieve the best result and not achieve it by the use of (very) expensive electronic devices. So banning the reading of devices when actually on the water would achieve that. Reviewing the data afterward may help the racer to make better decisions when they go back out again on the water. What’s the harm in that?

    I’ve only started sailing and racing this year, but it didn’t take long to realize that a good start followed by decent tacking and an awareness of currents,tides and tactics is far more useful than having a box tell me what to do. Haven’t succeeded too well so far but… I’ll endeavor to persevere.

    I would ban the use of devices which give start line bias and best tacking information while actually racing, while allowing them on-board (but out of view) for recording of the boat’s track, speed, distance sailed etc, for review off the water.

    The difficulty with banning them from being on-board is that GPS is available in tiny devices nowadays and an unscrupulous fellow can hide them pretty easily.

    #11356
    Swiebertje
    Participant

    @Davdor7038 wrote:

    As I understand it, the proposal wants racers to use their brain power to achieve the best result and not achieve it by the use of (very) expensive electronic devices. So banning the reading of devices when actually on the water would achieve that. Reviewing the data afterward may help the racer to make better decisions when they go back out again on the water. What’s the harm in that?.

    Bang! You hit the nail on the head.
    @Davdor7038 wrote:

    I would ban …….

    The difficulty with banning them from being on-board is that GPS is available in tiny devices nowadays and an unscrupulous fellow can hide them pretty easily.

    We, scrutineers, don’t want to be DI-jones-es with big looking glasses, we want something that we can easily check in a friendly, easy and quick way. The old rule strictly forbid such devices from being aboard. The new rule appeals to the sailor not to use them rather then forbid them from being aboard.

    Today we cannot forbid sailors to take their cell phones aboard, or a handheld VHF for that matter. So we change the rule in to: “You may not use them while racing”. Further more there is a safety issue. Specially in the USA forbidding a VHF aboard may have serious legal repercussions if something goes wrong. Another case: The US Wayfarers have an annually river race where the course is a single line along a meandering river. It is for the hosting club impossible to cover the entire course by rescue boats. Hence they require all competitors to carry a (handheld) VHF for safety. Under the old rule this was not possible. The new rule allows clubs to deal with it through the race prescriptions. For us European sailors that race on open sea, having a cell phone or VHF may contribute to our safety as well, as long as we do not use them to get guidance from a coach ashore or on a support vessel. I think the Wayfarer sailors are very capable of protesting any sailor that abuses the rule. And our treasured scrutineers do not need to police the fleet with radio direction finders.

    When we discussed the wording of the new rule we tried to do it in such a way that a amongst others, a ‘Tactic micro compass’ would be allowed but a ‘Tactic race master’ or a ‘Velocitek Pro Start’ would not. Given this discussion we seem to have succeeded in that goal, despite the vast number of sailing gadgets available today.

    And to the odd sailor that thinks he can beat the system I can honestly say: Try! I dare you!
    You are never going to win from the guys that sail at every opportunity they get and because of that are always in the front of the fleet. No gadget will ever beat practice and experience!

    #11357
    Swiebertje
    Participant

    On the other hand, it is great fun to call the champ on his cell phone just 30 seconds before the gun, only to inform him of the fact the gun is about to go off…..
    Now imagine him wearing a wet suit and dry top and what not, and his phone is stored somewhere inside all those layers of clothing……. :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

    #11362
    7588
    Participant

    Raymarine T060 Microcompass – magnetic fluxgate compass; also can store a boat’s tacking angle.

    Raymarine T070 Racemaster – magnetic fluxgate compass; also can store mean wind direction, a boat’s tacking angle and a start line perpendicular. The same unit can communicate via the Raymarine Micronet Wireless network to optional depth, wind, speed or (via an NMEA wireless transmitter) to wired sensors such as GPS. The Racemaster cannot give time on distance to a start line unless it is networked with a GPS.

    Both have functions that if used would be outlawed under the new rules. IMHO if you can’t enforce a rule, it’s hardly worth the paper it’s written on.

    #11363
    Swiebertje
    Participant

    @7588 wrote:

    Both have functions that if used would be outlawed under the new rules. IMHO if you can’t enforce a rule, it’s hardly worth the paper it’s written on.

    Sailing is a game where policing is done by fellow sailors. It is not the task of a scrutineer to keep a close eye on your behaviour or how you use of your boat. I look at the use of prohibited equipment in a similar way as I look at pumping or sculling. They are all things for your fellow sailor to police and protest. And that is exactly what changed we moved the equipment rules from something that was impossible to enforce to something that can easily be policed and protested by sailors. As a scrutineer I have never seen a boat with a telephone in it, yet as a sailor I have seen many using their cell phone during a race.

    #11382
    John1162
    Member

    There were three rule change proposals this year which were all passed. The effects of these rule changes are that the measurement process remains the same and buoyancy testing for measurement is still required but buoyancy certificates do not need updating. Owners still have to ensure their boats comply with the buoyancy requirements but now the onus of responsibility is placed with the owner. Twin spinnaker poles are now regularised and you will not be protested if you have a twin pole system. Electronic instruments will be restricted to compass heading and changes thereof, timing, sound and vision recording is also permitted. If a piece of equipment is capable of more than this it is banned. Further clarification is being sought from the WIC and will be posted as soon as we hear.

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